Welcome to Leader: Unlocked, where we dive deep into the leadership strategies and insights of successful business leaders. This is your host, Paige Buan.
In this episode, I’m really excited to introduce Jeff Manhilot, one of the Top 100 Filipinos to Follow on LinkedIn.
Jeff has an incredible story, highlighting that it's never too late to make a change in your life and pursue your dreams. In this episode, Jeff shares insights into his journey, the challenges he faced, and the principles that helped him succeed.
Get ready to be inspired and motivated to take action towards achieving your own personal and professional goals!
Paige Buan
Welcome, Jeff, to the Leader: Unlocked Podcast. We're really excited to have you on. It's been a while since we last saw each other in person, what are you up to now?
Jeff Manhilot
Well, I'm in a lot of things. I am currently the President of Inspire Leadership Consultancy, Inc. I'm also the CEO or Chief Equipping Officer of a foundation called Practical Leadership Institute. It's a nonprofit organization. I've also been a board member, board of advisors of two companies and also consultant at the advisory level on several companies as well, apart from being a father to two kids and a husband to one wife.
So those are the things that are keeping me busy nowadays.
Paige Buan
That’s fantastic. I can only imagine what your daily calendar looks like. How do you do it? How do you juggle all these things and still keep track of what you need to do?
Jeff Manhilot
It's a simple format, and I just got this from other people that I've observed who I believe are hitting the mark in where they are right now. One of the things I've noticed with them is that they usually know what it is that they want to achieve in life. And what they do is that they align the things that they do on a day-to-day basis toward what they want. And if you notice who you are today is just a combination of what you've done yesterday.
Paige Buan
Yeah.
Jeff Manhilot
And that's why it's never too late to eventually have a different future for yourself because you can always change what you're doing today, so that tomorrow will be changed. So ganun lang. It looks simple, but it's never easy. Life is simple. For example, losing weight is simple. It's just less calories, more activities, proper rest. So think about it. These are basic, and yes. But is it easy to eventually do? I don't think so, especially not nowadays.
Paige Buan
It’s definitely easier said than done. How did you change your future and achieve your goals? What motivated you to make those changes despite the challenges you faced?
Jeff Manhilot
There was a time in my life when I was just engrossed with career, I can remember it was back in 2008. I would say that was my prime in terms of my career because the company that was working for sent me together with a 7-man Philippine team to train 5 people of what we're doing in the Philippines. At that time, the people I was with was about 10-years tenure. They've been doing what they've been doing for quite some time. I was the youngest at that time. I was in my 30s, early 30s. But I was already diagnosed with fatty liver and then you know, hypertension, but I was overweight.
So when it came back to the Philippines, I told myself I can't live like this. I have a newborn son. Back then, he was about 7 months old, 8 months old. And I told myself I need to be a good example to my son. And I can't just tell him what to do, so I'll have to show him. So I started changing my eating habits. And I started doing some small activities.
Here's what I also learned and tried to continue on today. They're saying that during New Year, gym membership goes up, they skyrocket. By February, about 80% of them eventually lose focus on what they initially wanted to do, primarily because we wanted it perfect at the onset. So what I've learned was you just do what you can with what can today.
So I started running back in 2009, 2010. I just started running 5 minutes a day, just 5 minutes, because that's the only length of time I can run. I think I was dying already at the five-minute mark. And then it just kept at it day in, day out, one week. Then after a week, "I think I can do 6 minutes." So I did six minutes. Lo and behold, after how many weeks, months, I was able to run my first 5-kilometer run. And then from there, I was able to eventually finish 2 full marathons. And now, it's no longer running. I have a different goal for my life because I've turned 45. They say when you're in your 40s, you need to start building up your muscles because there's a time in our lives, it will be harder for men to retain their muscles so it's better that you do weight or at least bodyweight. So that's what I'm doing now there. So that's my story in that part.
Paige Buan
You have, like, one thing that pulls everything together. You can have a lot of things that you want to do, but you don't lose sight of why you want to do it. As you do something, other opportunities open up. Just thinking about the possibility, that can already change the course of your life.
Jeff Manhilot
That's true, especially nowadays. And this also part of what I share with the people I give talks to, especially the younger generation. There's so many opportunities. Give me some time to unpack this one. Because I grew up in the ‘80s, right, and I eventually took my college in the '90s, so I was part of the '80s and '90s generation. In the ‘80s, I can still remember, you don't have too many things that you can engage with. To keep ourselves occupied, when we were young, we were playing outside the streets, because there's nothing else. We have to fix our own toys. I don't know if you've done this in the past, there's Alaska tin cans that we would usually just hammer on the top and then we have thongs and flip flops, and we would suck it there. And then we would walk in these things, right? These are already toys for us.
Nowadays, the are things that you can eventually see as opportunities for you to get busy, to be productive, it's just so amazing and outstanding. Now here's the key issue on that part. What seemingly are opportunities are mostly distractions.
Paige Buan
Exactly.
Jeff Manhilot
Now, if you know what you're aspiring for- and as an executive coach, as a leadership coach, one of the things that I usually help people to be focused on is that, first, you identify what is it that you want for your life? What's the goal that you want? Define it, and eventually, verbalize it, write it down, make sure that you're really clear with it. Because if you are, then other things that will not add value or add to what you want to become or what you want to achieve in the future, you just have to say no to them because they're just a waste of your time.
I'm not the only one who's been saying this, if you look at those who are successful at their craft, in social media, like Gary Vaynerchuk, Elon Musk, and so on so forth. They've been doing it as well. They have been saying no to a lot of things, despite the fact that they can say yes to a lot of things now.
Paige Buan
Yeah. When you have a lot of opportunities, you have a lot of things that you can say yes to, it's hard to say no to these things. But one thing that I did notice is like a lot of people would say yes to something not because they really believe in it, but because they feel like other people want them to take that even if it's not true to them. "Maybe I should just take this opportunity because everybody who finds out about it says it's an amazing opportunity. What if I'm not seeing something they're seeing."
Jeff Manhilot
I think I made a post of this one. I would usually say, "Only look sideways when you're crossing the street, but when you're running your race or your career, you should always look up." Okay, just caveat on this one. I'm a follower of Christ. So that means I believe in the Bible and what the Bible tells us about how our lives should be. So I would usually say, Look up for direction, look within for courage, look forward for your destination, but never look sideways." Because sideways means that you would be looking at the other person doing their own thing, their own race, and comparing yourself to them. When in fact, each person has an amazing journey that I believe God has given us so that we can eventually enjoy life.
The first thing that I would usually share with is find your niche, find what you are destined to eventually do. Now simple but not easy. So how do you do that? This worked for me and some of the people that I coach with. Just look at three things in your life. What you can do best at? And it's pretty much straightforward. These are the talents and the skills that some people say, "You know what? You're so good at this one. You make it look easy." Now, those are the talents and skills that you can hone and eventually be best at. Okay.
So number two, what are you passionate about? Passion in its original word means sacrifice. In other words, I would say what would you be willing to die for? What would you be willing to be uncomfortable inconvenience and continue to do that you are good at or you can be best at.
And the third part that you would have to look is at what would add value to others. Now again, this is a word that's being thrown around, but not really thought of really seriously. When you say "value," when you value something, you pay the price. So people: if you want to know whether something that you're offering is of value to them, try charging a fee. That person would say, "Oh, wow, even though you charged me with this one, I'll still pay for you to do this for me because it's so valuable for me.
Then those three things will eventually lead you to what you probably were intended to do in the first place: what you can be best at, natural skills, natural talents you can hone; what your heart really shouts for; and then third is that what can add value to others.
That's the reason why some people are really paying high in terms of what they're doing. And if you look at them, it seems like they're enjoying it. But I'm telling you, there are times that they just don't like doing it. But because it's their passion, "this is what I want to do, I would die for this one, I would get inconvenienced with this one, and I'm so good at it, and that person loves what I'm doing," perfect combination.
So it's not an easy thing that you would wake up one day, and you'll find it out. But what I'm saying is that if you go on a journey with that in mind, not looking at what other people do, you'll be surprised that you would eventually be more fulfilled. See?
What's happening today is that there are two things that's causing us to be more frustrated. Again, in the '80s and '90s, when you say "mental health, breakdown," it's unheard of back in our days. Because when you say you have mental health issues, we're thinking you're crazy. You'll be in a hospital in Mandaluyong. Okay?
So but nowadays, it's becoming more and more common. Why? Two things that happened. One is we're more affluent nowadays. We have more things that we can buy. We no longer think about what we're going to be eating tomorrow. Just recently, we had a vacation, and just- the things that we can enjoy today is just astounding, right? We went to a very far off place. Can you imagine? In the middle of nowhere, you'll eventually see a KFC or a Burger Kings, and affluence. And the second one is information. The access to information is just mind-boggling.
Paige Buan
Yeah.
Jeff Manhilot
I don't know if you're familiar with ChatGPT.
Paige Buan
Yes, we are.
Jeff Manhilot
Man, right? So the amount of information, and now the younger generations are getting all these things, they can do so many things because they can afford to, they don't have to worry about what they're going to be eating tomorrow. In fact, what they're worrying about is that they have so many clothes, what am I going to wear for tomorrow, right? So it's no longer about survival. It's all about now and the upper chain of Maslow's hierarchy.
Then the second part is we're being fed with so much information. Somebody from wherever that person is, is telling us, "This is the life. I opened my eyes and I'm seeing this beautiful place." And you're now saying, "Oh, what a wretched life I have. I'm just waking up in this 2-bedroom condo unit that I have. And that makes us eventually frustrated, depressed, and then somebody else would also say no, like, it's all about business. So I think those are the things that eventually troubles us.
That's why if you focus on the craft that was given to you and just be best at what you can be best at, that passion that you have, and what people thinks that is of value to them, you'll never go wrong. That's a race that you have to eventually run.
That's kept me from looking sideways from others because I'm too busy doing what I'm doing. In fact, in my craft right now, I'm into social media. You know that in LinkedIn, right, I'm posting. If I'm too much focused on what other people in my industry is doing, it's so frustrating. I would say, "How come he's doing that? How come she's already been invited there?" But if you're busy with what you're doing already, let them do their thing. I'm doing mine. I only have 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. I don't have time to eventually have too much drama in my life.
Paige Buan
Is there a time limit? When you are young, you're always taught the concept of time. We are taught to value time.
Jeff Manhilot
Of course.
Paige Buan
But what we realize after a few years, where did my time go? Like, what did I do last week? Those questions are being asked more and more today.
Jeff Manhilot
Yes, and we should. We all should ask that same question. See? Regret is okay to a certain extent. It's okay. They say it's okay not to be okay. That's okay. But it's not okay to stay not okay for a very long period of time. That means that if you had an epiphany of short and then say, "What have I done with my life for the past few years?" That's a good thing.
If you still are breathing today, you can still change what you can change today so that your tomorrow is a different story. We think that we can only do the things we want to do when we're young. That's not true.
I'll tell you another story. I worked for a company called Mekeni Food Corporation. So Mekeni Food Corporation is a family-owned business that was built by two teachers who were in their 60s back in the late '80s and early '90s. Okay. Two teachers, one is a principal of a school that's still there in Balubad. But I worked there, so I stayed in their original house. So the wife and the husband were both 60 years old, at their retirement age. They built a company that's still now standing. It's the first in Asia to be ISO certified, second in the world. Huge company. Their products are known not only here. They now export in the U.S. The last time I heard, they also have now products in Japan.
Paige Buan
That's amazing. Yeah.
Jeff Manhilot
At 60. So what's our excuse? Another person I know of, Krish Dhanam. He's very famous in the U.S. He's the protege of Zig Ziglar, the sales guru in the U.S., and I would say in the world. His father, at the age of 80, decided he'll take his PhD. At the age of 84, I think 83, he finished it. So he was asked, "Why are you going to take PhD at the age of 80? After 4 years, what would you accomplish?" "Well, I'll get a PhD after 4 years, if I don't, after 4 years, I'll just be the same. I'll be 84, but without a PhD. I'm taking it now so that after 4 years, I have a PhD.
So I mean, the time limit is that when we're still alive, and okay, when we die, that's the time limit that we have. And that's the thing, we don't know when. So what we can do today, we do today. If you realized you've wasted time there, that's already spilt milk. Let's do something new today, so that we will change our tomorrow, if we still have tomorrow, at least what we can do today, we do today.
Paige Buan
That's really good. The problem there is they're always comparing themselves to other people. It's a competition.
Jeff Manhilot
There you go. That's right. Now, there's nothing wrong with competing with, say, a colleague. You know, back when I was still aspiring for bigger roles in the past, I would always also compete healthily with my colleagues. The competition is like this. "Oh, wow. His presentation has a map in it. How come mine doesn't? I think I can also do that." So it's more of me saying, "Well, that's something that I can also do, I should be doing that as well." It's not that I'm going to be better than that person, so that person will be -- No, we were stretching ourselves. And there's a proverb that says, "As iron sharpens iron so does one person sharpen another."
So I think in a healthy environment in an organization, when you see someone who's doing really well, and you say, "I think I can also do that thing." It's more of an inspiration to compete with -- not compete against a person, but compete against yourself, because you're seeing the person can do it. So what's my excuse? I think I can also do that in relation to your aspiration.
Paige Buan
Right. So we're talking about time. Everybody knows time. Something that I've been talking a lot with my friends is the value of space, the environment that you're in. And a lot of people don't realize the importance or the impact that space has on you. How do you recognize a situation or an environment that's actually bad for you?
Jeff Manhilot
I'll be a little bit controversial on this one. This has been a common thing among what I've been seeing in the social media sphere right now.
That when they say you're in a toxic environment, you should get out of it. I beg to differ. And let me tell you why. And I just posted something to this effect just this morning about mental toughness. See, you can never grow your muscles or your mental muscles, or your emotional muscles in an environment that's easy. It's the same with doing exercise. You grow your muscles because you lift weights to a point that your muscles will break, and that it will heal itself. And when it gets healed, it's never the same. It's bigger. It needs to eventually adapt to what you've allowed it to eventually go through. And I believe we were designed for that.
And I think that's a reason why we are on top of the food chain. Unlike other creatures on this earth, we were given this opportunity to think and to adapt. Our bodies are amazing. Our minds are amazing. We can adapt, we can eventually grow from an experience.
That's why I don't believe in the saying that experience is the best teacher. I've had a lot of people I've met that are highly experienced, but they never learned. Evaluated experience is the best teacher. If you can survive in a toxic environment, imagine what you would do in an easy environment. I would always say if you're in a toxic, make the best out of it. Don't escape immediately.
Now what did I do back then? Let me share with you this story as well. In my career, I went into the office where Diversity, Equity, Inclusivity, all these things are not -- chauvinism is still the in-thing. I still had bosses in the past that I see how they treat their secretaries. You know? These are the types of things and these are the kind of environment that I worked in. I've been in dreaded situations with my boss. My first boss was cursing at us, not just cursing, but cursing at us. So it was very toxic environment. I never left that company up until the time that somebody offered me a better position that would bring me closer. It's always bringing me closer to where I want to be.
Fortunately, for me, I heard this from Francis Kong, which I'm working with right now. But I heard him say, "Don't just kite around your resume and leave at the first sight of trouble. Stay where you are. Grow your roots. If somebody else gets you, and it's nearer to your goal, go ahead." So that's what I did. If you talk about toxic environment. Probably, I've seen these types of toxic environment in the past. But what those toxic environment taught me is that it developed my character. And at the same time, the second part is that it told me what I shouldn't be as a leader in the future.
So take that opportunity, grow your roots, grow your muscles, your emotional muscles, learn more. Two things that you need to continuously develop, it's your character and your competence. Probably in certain situation, it's your competence that's allowing you not to cope with the environment that you're in. Or probably you need to grow your character, your patience, your ability to withstand whatever it is. Because I'm telling you, there's still more out there, and we can't control a lot of things outside of ourselves. And there's this quote, "What doesn't kill you will make you stronger.
So I know it's a bit controversial. Today, knowledge workers, they come a dime a dozen. All of us are very knowledgeable. Why? Because at that touch of our fingers, we can have access to information. ChatGPT, I've mentioned it already; OpenAI, and so on and so forth. So these are easily accessible now. The one thing's lacking nowadays, it's that mental toughness. It's an adversity quotient that a lot of people are now losing just because they're not allowing themselves to grow their muscle, their emotional muscles in environments that would allow them to. That first sight of trouble, bail out. How would you eventually grow your character that way? As long as it's not already a life-threatening situation wherein somebody's already putting a gun to your head or probably battering you or there's sexual harassment?
Paige Buan
Yeah, that's a different story.
Jeff Manhilot
Those are different situations. But if it's a boss that's shouting at you, cursing, if you can survive that and then move to an organization where doesn't happen, you're gonna fly. For those who like comics, I would call it a Kryptonite planet. Superman and the people in planet Krypton were strong because that planet has a harsh environment so that when Superman eventually went to another planet like Earth, he has that kind of superpowers, because he came from worse conditions. I truly believe something like that as well.
Paige Buan
Yeah, I always thought of it as like, "If I'm the smartest person in the room, I'm in the wrong room." Because I want to force myself to learn. And what I love about training is that I'm not the only one giving the information. I'm also learning from my learners or my trainees. But I love what you said, “evaluated experience.”
Jeff Manhilot
Yes. And I'm not the one who said that. I heard that from Francis Kong. I think he also heard it from somebody else. But it's so true.
Paige Buan
It is. It is very, very true. But what about the people who do it over and over again?
Jeff Manhilot
Yes, that's why they don't learn. Yeah, that's why I don't believe in experience being the best teacher. They stay where they are.
In my line of work right now, I'm consulting for different companies. One of the things that the owners are having trouble with is this one. When they were starting, they started with people that trusted them, meaning to say that when your organization is starting up, you don't have money, you would usually get people that would work for you for a minimum amount, and they would help you build the company that you want to build. One of the things I've noticed is that these people eventually don't grow themselves. And because the company is growing, but they didn't grow with it. And in most cases, yes, the owners have a fault in their part as well of not providing the education or the continuous development for that person. But I would still say, it's always going to be our fault if we don't grow ourselves. It's not the company's responsibility to grow you. They can if they want to, but you shouldn't put your growth at the hands of somebody else. So you have to do it for yourself. So if you do, it's either the company grows as you grow or you outgrow the company, somebody else gets you. So you become more bankable, you become more in demand eventually. So it's a win-win for you. You don't put your growth in the hands of other people. Do it for yourself. I mean, especially if you have a goal for yourself.
Paige Buan
Yeah, I have observed that as well, especially with startups, they have their key people. But most of the time, it's either their key people start falling off or yeah, go somewhere else or stay the same when everybody new is outperforming them. So how do you push yourself, though? It sounds like you have to lead yourself, and it doesn't really tie into, like, a position. You don't let a position dictate how you lead yourself.
Going back to that example. You have your core people, but when the company starts hiring people above you, of course, you're gonna feel like, “I was one of the pioneers, and they hired an external person to lead the team instead of me.” So how do you lead, regardless of the position that you're in?
Jeff Manhilot
I usually have this concept called, "You can lead where you are." So it's not about the position that you have. Of course, when you have a position, automatically, you're given an authority. You can lead people. But you can always lead from where you are, wherever you are in the hierarchy, or wherever you are in your status, in your gender, whatever it is. You can lead where you are.
So there are two things to your question. The first one is that if you are lower rank or rank-and-file, how do you lead where you are? I would usually say we're all actually born leaders. There's a joke that I usually use when I do my training programs as well. I would ask the participants, "Are leaders born or made?" Some people would say they're born, some people would say made. I would say, "Look, leaders have to be born first before they can lead, right? So they're both. They're made, and they're born."
But I would say all of us are leaders from the very beginning because leadership is all about influence. A baby, a small baby doesn't even talk, and yet, when you see the baby crying, what happens is that people around them come running. And I know also a lot of people, a lot of my friends who change their lifestyle because they had a baby.
So what I'm saying is that even as a baby, we were already influencing others. We had that innate capability of leading people. The problem is as we grow older, we lose that capability because we don't hone it. We don't develop it. We eventually believe a lot of lies that are being thrown out that for you to lead, you have to -- no, no.
So how do you lead where you are? First, I mentioned this already: character. You have to continuously develop your character and your competence. Competence is your skill sets, your capabilities and so on.
The second part is how do you grow your influence. Your influence is grown if people see you managing yourself more, for example, right now, if I probably not manage myself, I wouldn't be sitting where I am today. My influence grew not because of how great I am, how good I am, because I managed myself first. Because if I was the same person I was before, I won't probably be doing what I'm doing today.
In fact, some of my classmates back in college, whenever they see me do what I do, they smile, and they laugh. On one instance, I gave a talk in a conference, and one of my batch mates in college was there, and he approached me. "I never thought you would be doing this, Jeff." Because I was a different person back in college than I am right now.
We can't control what's outside of ourselves. I can't control traffic. I can't control the government. I can't control my boss. I can't control my colleague. But what I can control is how do I respond to them? How do I eventually talk to them, and so on, so I can only manage myself. And then as I do, the magical thing is that my influence grows. Some people say, "How do you do that? I mean, I don't know how." That's why you're asking me all these questions as we;;. "Jeff, how do you do that?" Because then, I can influence other people.
The third part is just do it. Be action-oriented. A lot of us are being prevented from actually doing the right things that we learned. We read something, and then we try to do it once, and we stop. Now one of the reasons why is because we get embarrassed, it's awkward, and so on, so forth. Imagine if a small child starts to stand up and walk, and he falls down, she falls down, and then you tell the child, "Oh, no, that hurt, right? That's so awkward. So embarrassing. Don't do that again anymore." A child would always, "I'll do it again. I'll do it again." Yeah. Why? Because they want to do it. They want to learn. That's what we lost as well. “Oh, this one is a nice concept. It's a nice principle, I'll try today.” Then we get embarrassed because we didn't do it right. It feels so awkward. And what do we do eventually? We stopped doing it because it doesn't feel right. It feels awkward. I got embarrassed, I was ashamed, and so on. And that's the reason we don't learn something new.
Paige Buan
Exactly.
Jeff Manhilot
So you take out the lid, so that you can lead where you are. When I mentioned those 3 things, that's a lid: Learn continuously your character and competence, grow your influence, and just do it. Whatever it is that you're learning, continue doing it, be action-oriented.
Don't aim for perfection, aim for progress. So perfection, we can probably get that when we're in heaven. But while we're here, progress is good enough. Okay. So if you're better today than you were yesterday, then I think that's good enough.
On the second part of that question, in terms of what do you do now if you're in a situation wherein you're there, but you can't influence the whole organization, is that right? Because somebody gets promoted on top of you? Life happens that way. So what do you do then?
As mentioned, as well, you cannot control those things. I was always asking these questions, "How can that person got promoted? How can that person get promoted?" And then when I got to a position in that organization, I was part of how people are promoted, I was shocked.
Let me tell you a secret. Contrary to popular belief. You don't get promoted because of your performance alone. It gets your foot on the door. But let me tell you what, perception is always one of those key things that gets people promoted. When you say perception, perception of your potential. This guy has leadership potential. That's just perception, right? So that means don't take it too seriously that you were passed over for a promotion, and you would compare yourself to them. "But I was doing better than that person. My numbers are better." See, because when you get to a position, it's no longer about your tangible performance alone. It has that sort of percentage, but not wholly. It's more of the perception of what you can be in the future as your potential leader, especially the leadership potential.
Now what that means. So if you get passed over, continue developing yourself, continue developing what you can do. And there's a second component ingredient, get yourself out there. Meaning to say, let people know so it's no longer about what you know or what you can do that matters when it comes to promotion. It's who knows what you can and cannot do. So what I'm saying is that you don't just hide what you can do. And you don't also trumpet it around. But make sure that we let people eventually know that you can do this one, you can do that one.
And one component that I find really helpful is this one: In an organization, be a problem-solver. Now, I know, Paige, here in the Philippines, it's frowned upon when we have people who are what we call, "bibo." Diba? Bibo kid. And I felt that before. What can I do? I like to solve problems. I like to eventually ask questions. I like to eventually be a part of something big, meaning to say I want to be a part of that. So I volunteer myself. I ask questions. I also solve problems. And of course, there would be a time that you get branded as a bibo. So what? What can I do? I can't control their opinions of me. What I can control is how I develop myself. So the more I develop myself, the more that I can eventually grow.
So yeah, in the future, you get passed over. It happened to me many times over. But see? So what? Other people will eventually know what I can do. They hired me for a bigger position. That's how life operates. But if you soak and eventually let those things affect you, and as mentioned, the quiet-quitting thing, then you quiet-quit or you just stay, I'll just give them my bare minimum because they never recognize me anyway, you know what? You're just hurting yourself in the process. Because then you stop growing, then the cycle continues. Then all the more, nobody will eventually promote you to a higher position. All the more, you'll sulk again. All the more, you don't get far. You stay in the same position. In short, you get bitter, not better.
Paige Buan
That's true. So that's definitely a lot of nuggets from this discussion. And that's the best way to wrap up this episode. We'll continue part two. Stay tuned. Thanks, Jeff for being on the first one.
Jeff Manhilot
My pleasure.